Mystic Software Forums
Miscellaneous => General Off-Topic => Topic started by: Asimir on September 03, 2004, 08:14:01 AM
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Sickening.....
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That's Mother Russia, not some tidy-widy western community.
I understand Chechenians, trust me. It's Russia, not US. In Russia, armed soldiers can massacre a civilian town in Chechenia and nobody cares about this. Government does everything to cripple power of Chechenians.
Army had right to make violent action, too. Sure, many died, but it's not like in US, where when someone is taken hostage Bush makes speeches about how they are not going to bow down before terrorist and in short don't give a (Editor: Censored) whenever the hostage will die or not.
And, that's Russia. That's the heritage of soviet methods of acting.
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Actually, there was an explosion on the inside, likely a child triggered a bomb, causing dozens to die. The hostage takers then opened fire on hostages as they tried to flee at this point - so the soldiers decided they had to act there and then.
More died when hostage takers tried to flee by spraying bullits randomly.
Either way - it was going to end bloody.
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Didn't have to. The government could've given in.
....but they'd never do that.
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Heh. So you just want the soldiers to stand there and let the terrorists shoot the children trying to run out? They had no choice to try and do something.
Sure it led to many deaths...but you can't expect them to stand there and watch. They never planned to siege the school, they were still negotiating...but after children started getting shot in front of them...
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There must be some way it's Bush's fault though right Vampz? There must be a connection with Bush and the US, or Cesque won't die happy....
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Heh. So you just want the soldiers to stand there and let the terrorists shoot the children trying to run out? They had no choice to try and do something.
Sure it led to many deaths...but you can't expect them to stand there and watch. They never planned to siege the school, they were still negotiating...but after children started getting shot in front of them...
No, I think the soldiers did the right thing. I meant that it could've been resolved sooner with no death nad much less suffering.
I mean, even if there were no deaths in the seige, those children suffered a terrible time and they'll be mentally scarred forever.
But of course, they wouldn't give in to the terrorist's demands.
I would, just to save the lives... but that's why I'll never be a politician.
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I allways think that someday it might happen, but Dippy is like, No it will never happen, well I sure proved him wrong? It kinda sucks that I did, it's so sad that it happened, those poor childeren.....(http://http://eon.ssxh.net/cutenews/data/emoticons/crying.gif)
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Umm...DudeMan, this is far from the first time that there have been shootings in a school....
I don't even know anything about this one yet. Anyone have a link to a good article?
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Umm...DudeMan, this is far from the first time that there have been shootings in a school....
Oh yes your are far from wrong about that. I remember one when this kid somewere in USA I think went on a shooting rampage in his school, they were talking about that one on Inside Edition for weeks. -_-
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Some terrorists took hostage houndreds of children in a school, rigged the gym with explosives and stripped the kids to their underwear. In the end, as mentioned, dozens died (latest reports now say 150+) due to the explosions and resulting gun fire. Hundreds injured, bullits riddling their limbs - the pictures on the news are awful. I'm amazed it's not worthy of US news coverage.
Go to <a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk</a>, they're bound to have it on frontpage.
And Asimir - do you know what their demands were? The likelyhood is it was far too ridiculous or unattainable for the Russian government to act upon, so they tried negotiating. Negotiations were happening...it's just someone unfortuinately triggered an explosive inside and all hell broke loose. The fact of the matter is the Government were talking to them, and were not flat out rejecting this elusive demands.
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I'm sure it is in the news here in the US. I only got home from work a couple hours ago though, and don't really watch the news. I just noticed the headline in the newspaper sitting on a table at my work. I just read the article at msn.com, and it said that they were asking for independance for Chechnya (what's new). It didn't say any specific demands though.
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Independance of Chechnya, how stupid are these rebels? If it was that straight forward to get an area the size of a nation to be handed over to rebels then it would be done all the time. I think I'll take a High School in the US and demand California is given to me.
All they have done is serve to have the Russian people and Government become even more aggressive towards their cause.
Ah well - since when were rebels logical, I guess? Razz
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Those damn rebels. They think there god when they have guns. It sickens me!
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Well, terrorism by definition is never a good thing Razz
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No it is not. The only good thing about it is that you can put it in movies, like Die Hard and such, that was a good movie...
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...I'm amazed it's not worthy of US news coverage...
Yes, it was on the news here. Actually, it made the local news. There was no newsbreak that I'm aware of, though. Of course, it could have happened while I was out (all morning).
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All they have done is serve to have the Russian people and Government become even more aggressive towards their cause.
Those damn rebels. They think there god when they have guns. It sickens me!
Sorry, you propably never heard word "independence" before.
Imagine suddenly Mexico grows in power and it forces US to join it. You're serving Mexican government now, you're forced to learn spanish language, you have to buy burritos rather than hamburgers.
Chechenia was conquered by Russia a long time ago (before WWII), but the spirit of Chechenians is strong enough that they fight for independence constantly. Now that's called "terrorism".
When they want to change their situation, government sends military forces to massacre their cities.
Still, I don't think school attack was a right thing for them to do. But that's not
"Chechenians" - that was done by some terroristic side organisation whose members are Chechenian. The official chechenian partisan group denied any support to such action.
Just because you're all proud happy Americans doesn't mean the rest of the world enjoys serving a strong empire against their will.
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I did not argue the cause of independance is wrong. All I and Dudeman referred to, and you quoted, was how this particular action does not help their cause and is sickening.
But nonetheless in your twisted, borderline racist and obsessive way, use it for no valid reason to attack Americans and their views.
Get over your eastern block hump for once, this routine is getting old.
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You americans simply don't understand such concepts as "independence" believing yourself to be most powerful country in the world. You don't understand a man can have honor and reject offer "I'll give you 5 bucks if you bow down your head before Russia and if not, I'll kick you in the neck."
Oh well. I never truly understood some ultra-stupid desperate suicides in name of some higher stupid ideals, too. But I guess I still have this in blood. Polish is well known in Europe for organising failed uprisings... (in XIX century, during time our country was not physicaly existing, during WWII, the Warsaw Uprising... all we got are thousands killed and stupid poems talking about their bravery a'la "Gloria Victis", damn)
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You really need to stop saying, "You Americans". Geez, talk about stereotyping.
I swear if I said "You Asians" to an Indian, I'd be accused of racism.
And for the record, I'm not from nor do I live in America.
But no doubt in your anti-America stance it doesn't matter - you just want to lump anyone you disagree with into one simple nationality that you can attack.
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Yeah Cesque, it's really annoying how you stereotype anyone who is not you. You possibly hold the most racist un-open minded views out of anyone here... True you are Polish, but how personally involved were you in Polish history. Or in in general how personally involved are you in any matter which you speak of. Have you lived in America ever? Have you ever been the victim of terrorism? I'm not saying that I have done any of these (except for the lived in America thing), but you cannot act like you know everything in this world just because your country has a history that others lack. You are so gullible to stereotypes it's sickening.
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Let's just say I'm an eastern weirdo from middle-class family of commie-wannabees which realises west must be more freaked-up than I ever thought...
Come on, polish government is supported by about 15-20% of people. And it seems that in the west, governments are supported by at least 75% people.
Because the option that you're living in total paradise doesn't seem good enough, I have to come up with an option that you're simply silly to support government.
America, UK... who cares? It's all one, grand Machina Capitalismi...
:blink:
I swear if I said "You Asians" to an Indian, I'd be accused of racism.
Because west is freaked-up.
Proper definition of racism is "belief that people of other races are inferior toward your race".
Now you say you're scared of black people and you're racist. You say you don't like asian chicks, you're racist. You say a black man is black and you're racist.
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Now you say you're scared of black people and you're racist. You say you don't like asian chicks, you're racist. You say a black man is black and you're racist.
Not only are you wrong, but that's an entirely different matter. Black people are American, English, French...whatever. To say "You Blacks" is offensive to many because you're grouping by skin colour, not nationality.
You said there are little black population in Poland - so I guess you wouldn't be used to a world where they are considered "Polish" not "Black people". So I'll let you off.
But the way you make your arguments, "You Americans", is highly stereotypical and almost hateful.
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well your first problem there is you automatically assume then that every "Western" person you encounter is among the 75%. You assume that every "Western" person is living in paradise and is not in poverty or stuggling. You generalize all of us as "Capitalists" when in fact that may or may not be true. I could do the same to you generalizing you as some Polish stereotype, as a matter of fact I can honestly say that you're just another Polish dude whose views probably reflect those of some bastard who had authority over you and fed you lots of shit about the world at a young age, you grew up a bit and took on those views. Normally this "bastard" is either a parental figure or a teacher, or any figure of authority. Before you go on undermining the problems of the world acting like your situation is more (Editor: Censored)ed up than others, try doing some research about what goes on in the world other than what the mass-media reports.
I for one have been an advocate of communistic ideals for many years; however, I do understand that it is unrealistic for humans to be able to support it in as most humans are built on a level of greed. I'd love to live under a democratic communist government.
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How about we all just shut the (Editor: Censored) up already...Its happened and yes its sickening , but we cant do a damn thing about it.
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Eh?
I guess we shouldn't talk about anything after because it's happened.
Foolish logic.
Anyways, lets continue with the discussion...
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You americans simply don't understand....
If your refering to me and Vampz, neither of us are American. Vampz, your, UK or something right?
Now you say you're scared of black people and you're racist. You say you don't like asian chicks, you're racist. You say a black man is black and you're racist.
Hmm....you do have abit of a point there. I don't think that makes you racist, I say that make you honest to say that. But I myself am not scared of black people and I do like asian chicks.
matt72186's post
Ahmen I agree!
Anyways, lets continue with the discussion...
Umm....yeah let's!
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But the way you make your arguments, "You Americans", is highly stereotypical and almost hateful.
Should I say "you part of America or UK who supports capitalism, war in Iraq, politics of president Bush, believe your country is best in the world, believe you help rest of the world and that democracy and liberty is a natural desire of every citizen"?
Same way most americans stereotype countries/systems/epople they dislike. You say "terrorists are this and this" but terrorists aren't thinking all one, same, hateful way. You refer to "communists" or "nazis" yet believe me or not, 80% people in the most evil and dictactorish countries are normal people who struggle with everyday problems.
And as I always says, most terrorists are being forced to join or die. I've read some interviews with some Afghani prisoners who were farmers or artisants (it was in polish edition of National Geographic or something, I believe), and believe me, he wasn't too happy when he heard all the stuff people say about terrorists, being barbarian, etc... He was just a man who had to shoot US soldiers or will be killed in a way far worse than being shot.
Believe me, you would do the same.
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What if we don't think our country is the best in the world, yet we think it's better to live here than most other places? What if we support some of Bush's politics, but not others? What if we think liberty is the desire of every logically thinking person on the planet, even if democracy isn't? What if we support the war in Iraq in its effort to rid a region of a tyrant that's killed thousands of his own people; as well as support the effort to bring freedom and hope to those that remain?
I suppose the above would only describe the greater half of our nation though, and you would rather pick on the 1% that believes what you posted above...
BTW, terrorists are thinking in the same hateful way. They think that violence, or terror, is a means to get what they want....hence the term "terrorists". Your correct in saying that most of the people in those countries are normal, rational thinking people, but those arn't the people we're reffering to when we're talking about terrorists. We're talking about the people walking the streets with guns waving around, wearing ski masks because inside they're too ashamed of what they're doing to reveal their own face. We're talking about the people holed up in schools for 3 days, and eventually slaughtering 100+ of their own countries children before dying themselves because they thought they could "save their country" by helping destroy it. We're talking about the people who hijack airplanes filled with innocent people who've done nothing to the terrorists country, and then crashing the planes into skyscrapers, destroying thousands of lives because one man thought that the country that helped save his country, was somehow trying to destroy it.
Believe me, you would do the same.
Actually I would've shot as many terrorists as I could pick off before they eventually shot me. Either way I die, only my choice didn't involve killing innocent people, and instead, might bring freedom and a better way of life to my family and countrymen.
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BTW, terrorists are thinking in the same hateful way. They think that violence, or terror, is a means to get what they want....hence the term "terrorists".
In Poland, during war, when Germany occupied Warsaw, there were people who done stealth sabotage actions, suicide attacks (not blowing up, but running into German soldier crowd and shooting as much as they could), of course after their actions in repressions German killed a random bunch o' 25 people to prevent from further such attacks. It did not help much.
I guess the ones who we know call partisan heroes which helped return Poland liberty you should call "terrorists thinking in the same hateful way".
Actually I would've shot as many terrorists as I could pick off before they eventually shot me. Either way I die, only my choice didn't involve killing innocent people, and instead, might bring freedom and a better way of life to my family and countrymen
Now answer the question again, being arabian farmer, standing in doorway with gun against your hand and knife under your throath.
SHoot you? Personally I think true terrorists would prefer to chop off your head or cut your troath, of course videotaping this.
Ha, ha, superhero. Thousands can answer they would do like you but the problem is, what would they do in real situation? I guess you're living a peaceful live away from any wars.
And of course if you would do something against terrorists, not only you would die, but your family as well.
We're talking about the people who hijack airplanes filled with innocent people who've done nothing to the terrorists country, and then crashing the planes into skyscrapers, destroying thousands of lives because one man thought that the country that helped save his country, was somehow trying to destroy it.
How about Americans bombing a wedding of some Afghani people, or American precise bomber shooting farmer with homing missiles because US thought it's some high-ranked terrorist?
Helped SAVE THEIR COUNTRY?
Now that's hilarious.
And you ask me about stereotyping and other shit while you're all a bunch of ignorant bastards, honestly? Reading this all, I am so glad I am not born in US or UK. I am glad my father is a racist (as you would call it, he hates mostly black and arabians) and my mother is pro-communistic.
I invite you to visit Afghanistan personaly and live there for a week as civilians, so that you could see how "saving a country" looks at larger scale.
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How about we all just shut the (Editor: Censored) up already...Its happened and yes its sickening , but we cant do a damn thing about it.
Good point. I guess that in 6 days we shouldn't remember the attacks on the Twin Towers either. After all, it's already happened and there's nothing we can do about it.
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Those poor people....I hate those damn Terrorest! I hope they all get impaled alive! Not die, just live in eternal pain!
This topic is makeing me sad....I'm gonna go...place Sad
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We had a small debate with a priest on today's religion lessen... which basicaly turned into half of our class defending the terrorists.
In fact, altough I don't think what they done was any good - Russians deserve it themselves, if they think "fight with terror" is raiding towns, murdering whole Chechenian families. Maybe not "deserve", but rather, "they could have predicted their actions would cause terrorism increase".
In case you don't know, the attack was propably revange for Chechenian "free" election in which - basicaly, because votes were fixed - the Cremlin's candicate won.
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In fact, altough I don't think what they done was any good - Russians deserve it themselves
Yep, Your absolutley right....
Every single one of those kids deserved what they got, How dare they be Russian, How dare they just happen to be born Under the Chechenian's enemy government, It doesnt matter that they didnt have a choice, They Should have delayed their own birth a good many years until After it happened, They should have Moved that day to another place................ :angry:
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Listen, WHO cares about Chechenian kids killed during russian "anti-terrorist" massacres? Who? Can I hear a single voice?
In Chechenia, you live your life, poor damn life under Russian government control, then suddenly you return and see your house burning after last anti-terroristic attack, and before the broken remains from it's doors you see your wife lying in pool of blood with russian bagnet it it's back. And you fear to enter to see what happened to your 6 year old son...
Altough I don't think what these terrorist done were wrong - most of them weren't even Chechenian, but when you see your own children burned alive, you don't think in categories "killing children is wrong". Eye for an eye.
But no one looks at the other side. You only scream loud when children are killed for all see it, but when russian soldiers follow the soviet tactic of mass-murdering men, women and children in Chechenia no one cares, because it's not a thing Russia shows on TV.
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Listen, WHO cares about Chechenian kids killed during russian "anti-terrorist" massacres? Who? Can I hear a single voice?
In Chechenia, you live your life, poor damn life under Russian government control, then suddenly you return and see your house burning after last anti-terroristic attack, and before the broken remains from it's doors you see your wife lying in pool of blood with russian bagnet it it's back. And you fear to enter to see what happened to your 6 year old son...
Altough I don't think what these terrorist done were wrong - most of them weren't even Chechenian, but when you see your own children burned alive, you don't think in categories "killing children is wrong". Eye for an eye.
But no one looks at the other side. You only scream loud when children are killed for all see it, but when russian soldiers follow the soviet tactic of mass-murdering men, women and children in Chechenia no one cares, because it's not a thing Russia shows on TV.
The other day, I watched a TV programme where a Polish guy killed an English person. I suppose that would make it fair for me to kill you.
An eye for an eye.
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First of all, there's difference between murder and government-organised mass murder.
Second of all, I don't say terrorists had right to attack the school.
Third of all, damn, everyone keeps saying "oh my, poor Russian kids" while no one says "oh my, poor Chechenian kids". No one cares about massacred in Sudan because you don't see them. You don't see people attacking others with machetes and smashing newborns on the walls.
Television is power nowadays... by not showing something, it simply makes it nonexistant.
Ditixque Televisor fiat lux, et facta est lux.
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Second of all, I don't say terrorists had right to attack the school.
Altough I don't think what these terrorist done were wrong
Sounds to me like you were saying that.
And murder is murder. Somebody kills another person. Killing innocent people isn't justified in any situation.
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Altough I don't think what these terrorist done were wrong
That's strange, now let me figure out why I said that... hmm... I have no idea. Sounds a bit somehow weird for me now... anyway...
Yeah, death is death. How is death of Russian child better than of Chechenian? How is woe of Russian families better than of Chechenians?
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You don't see people attacking others with machetes and smashing newborns on the walls.
You can only refer to what you have witnessed. Sure it's sad that people get raped every day, that people get murdered every day - but it's not personal enough unless you witness such an event via TV, friends or family.
To say people "don't care" about those suffering in Sudan, for example, just because they don't mention it every day is ludicrous.
Cesque, jump off that 2 foot horse of yours and take off your moron hat, sheesh.
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You want me to invite you for a ride?
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Altough I don't think what these terrorist done were wrong - most of them weren't even Chechenian, but when you see your own children burned alive, you don't think in categories "killing children is wrong". Eye for an eye.
If most of them wern't Chechenian, then it wasn't their children who were burned alive, thus negating the poor "eye-for-an-eye" excuse. Also, how does it help the Chechenian's gain independance for their country when their killing their own children? The children in the school were Chechenian. The terrorists claimed to want independance for Chechnia. So how does killing the people they're trying to save, help them in this situation? If the Russians just go around slaughtering Chechenian's, as you suggest, then wouldn't this school massacre be beneficial to them, since they didn't have to do the killing? If the Russians are out to slaughter the Chechenians, why did they have a police force there to save the Chechenian children from being murdered by their own people?
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This topic is still makeing me sad Sad .....fix that...Stop the maddness...
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If most of them wern't Chechenian, then it wasn't their children who were burned alive, thus negating the poor "eye-for-an-eye" excuse. Also, how does it help the Chechenian's gain independance for their country when their killing their own children? The children in the school were Chechenian. The terrorists claimed to want independance for Chechnia. So how does killing the people they're trying to save, help them in this situation? If the Russians just go around slaughtering Chechenian's, as you suggest, then wouldn't this school massacre be beneficial to them, since they didn't have to do the killing? If the Russians are out to slaughter the Chechenians, why did they have a police force there to save the Chechenian children from being murdered by their own people?
Did I say it all has to make sense? It's war, and war is usually senseless.
Yeah, the official Chechenian Partisan Group hasn't organised this action, but after identification of bodies some chechenian terrorist group leader was also found among the dead. Propably, most terrorists were hired mercenaries. Also, Chechenians organised similar actions before - Dubrovka theater anyone?
The school children weren't Chechenian, as far as I know. They were mostly Russian, but sure, there might be some Chechenian children learning there.
Russians generally didn't storm the school to save the children, but to kill the terrorists. 300 children are dead now, generally because of the old russian anti-terroristic tacting known as "first shoot, then ask". Similar was case in Dubrovka, where russian soldiers used gas - and 90% of the killed were killed by those who were sent to "save" them.
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It's clear to me most of what Cesque says is void since he clearly has a major dislike of the Russian people.
I'm pretty certain you must be the most prejudice TK user around - aka racist - that I have seen.
You argue yourself into contradictory circles just so you can get at the Russians or Americans.
I feel sorry for you have you have grown up with all this hatred and mistrust of other nations.
Alas, it'll probably be a grudge you'll hold all your life.
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Well, I have way more respect for the Russian nation which is built on vodka rather than US nation which is built on dollar. Razz
I don't hate russians - they just inherit some post-stalinistic methods of dealing with things...
You argue yourself into contradictory circles just so you can get at the Russians or Americans.
Hmm... That's just 2 nations I dislike, not that much to call be racist anyway. And I don't hate whole nations... I hate governments and those who support them. Ah, and a bit added on my own (christian fanatics, even if they don't support government, and such).
I don't hate any ethnic or racial group at least (I don't support homosexuals, but that's othing to do with race or origin).
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It's not your fault - you've probably grown in a social climate where the larger powers of the world are hated and many prejudices, some far beyond the realms of reasonable, are held. You're just a product of that environment, so you can't help it.
It's just a shame 90% of your posts in the Toolkit community as a whole are often fuelled by these very prejudices - as opposed to logic of objectivity. I'm sure you have a great time, but it's tiring to everyone else at the debate board. It's a one track debate with you...
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Well, with most people it is. Zerato keepts talking about Bush, Haraldur about politics/humanitarian aid/democracy and Grant about christianity...
Oh well. Blame it to social climate... My father is pretty much racist Smile He keeps saying about how Americans act senselessly, how modern times suck and how communistic methods would deal well with 'em, then how the "red ones" sucked, he complains about Arabians with their "barbarian religion" cutting throath of sheep before some church in Italy, then of how church falls and how much pedophilia and stupid fanaticism is in it... et cetera, et cetera. Oh well.
His famous quote, "You want to wear your stupid bandanas? Very well, but in Iran, not here!"
Asked what he supports in this all, he said "Hmm... animals?"
And obviously he keeps getting mad at me when I say what I think of this all, saying I will grow into a terrorist or revolutionary because I have too radical beliefs (after I said they should not allow old people to drive cars).
This is the social climate I've grown up in Smile
Not my fault, my hands are clear.
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Dippy wants to conquer the world and destroy anyone who tries to stop him, I said if we wished to follow threw on that I'd have to kill him Smile . If your father is right, Cesque, and you do become a terrorest, I'd have to kill you to.
I want to fight Terroests when I grow up! Smile Razz
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Cesque, your problem is that you make too many assumptions, you group massive amounts of people into one generalization. Well believe it or not there does exist variety in the world, probably not where you come from, but one thing that the United States has proven true is the fact that we live in diversity, especially in California where I live, there are many people with many opinions, and yet for most of the part we are able to live alright in here. Just because I am American does not mean that I support the actions taken by my government. As for the Chechenian, I do know about the massacres, and while I do sympathize with the murders in current events, it does not make those massacres any less important, but the fact is the topic at hand isn't about that, the heading for this topic is about the "Russian School Hostage Situation."
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All right, all right... I, despite what it might seem to be the case, also believe in diversity. Razz Sort of.
If your father is right, Cesque, and you do become a terrorest, I'd have to kill you to.
What makes you think that I won't kill you first?
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Dudes, what is wrong with you? Today is September 11th...and you care more about the Russian Elementary School than you do about the attacks on the Twin Towers three years ago?
And the award for most moronic statement of the topic goes to...
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Look, I don't know about you guys, but I think that it is more important to remember what happened three years ago than to discuss the school situation right now. Just for this day...
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Yeah - in fact - WHY ARE WE EVEN ONLINE!
Shouldn't we be huddled as families, crying about the death and destruction.
Geez.
Maybe we should never be happy, ever. All these people dying in the world, every day is an anniversary of some event...lets never talk about anything.
It's just a damn topic on a stupid forum on the bloody internet - get over it, Marky Sparky.
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Yeah.
Look, I don't know about you guys, but I think that it is more important to remember what happened three years ago than to discuss the school situation right now. Just for this day...
This obviously begs another question: why should we celebrate day of WTC fall, and not catastrophes like Chernobyl, Hiroshima, start of WWII, Titanic?
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Cesque, you live in Poland...you wouldn't understand.
And Xavier, I'm trying to make it clear that we shouldn't forget...but you seem to have done so.
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Right. So I have "forgotten" because I dared post in a topic on the same day as the anniversary.
Great logic, kiddo.
Obviously you have forgotten to, since you're too busy doing stuff on the internet and not remembering the event.
What gives you the right to determine what people can and can't do? Niave little child.
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Sure I wouldn't, I don't fully understand tons of people lightning their stupid candles before portraits of the dead as if it would ressurect them or what... All right, I can get concept of this. Dead should be respected.
But the children whose parents died drawing pictures to place near ruins of WTC... Hilarious... American indoctrination in purest form. Reminds me of soviet children singing "patriotic" songs in schools at Stalin's birthday.
All right, I'll end it before I'll get accused of offending Americans again Razz
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Clearing things up:
According to research about the case, the goal of the terrorists was not taking over the school to terrorise Russians or kill the hostages.
They wanted to concentrate all anti-terrorists on the school, to make a sudden attack on Cremlin, which would be less protected as all AT forces would be in Osetia.
Russian government propably knew that so they sent soldiers to deal with Chechenians quickly - at the cost of death of 300 children lives - to prevent the second attack. At least it worked.
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Yeah, I believe that, there are a lot of (Editor: Censored)ed up systems in the world. So much happens behind the scenes in government that they try to hide from the majority, the mass media only reports what people want to hear, but not what they should hear.
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300 children are dead now, generally because of the old russian anti-terroristic tacting known as "first shoot, then ask".
Except that...the Russians didn't shoot first.... Wink
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Spyder, shhh! Let Cesque get his anti-Russian crap out...he needs to otherwise he might just explode with all that bs inside.
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<sarcasm>And I'm sure America had something to do with it too Smile</sarcasm>
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Didn't you know? Bush is Putin's childhood friend (Tony Blair to). He told Putin to go massacre a school full of kids, and blame it on Chechnian rebels. The dead Chechs that were found at the scene that were said to be "Terrorists" were actually the childrens parents, there for their first day of school.
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Yeah, sure, let's believe "Bush is good and Putin is good and terrorists are children who were beaten up by parents during childhood so they were evil evil evil".
I am not anti-russian: I am amazed that unlike US, they can perform real anti-terrorist actions which bring effects. (Russian politics against Chechenia are another story...)
I am not saying Chechenians didn't shoot first - they were terrorists, after all, and their task was to lure anti-terrorists' attention by most horrid actions, but Russians also didn't look what they were shooting, for most part.
Oh well. Unlike you, I actually try to learn something about the case rather than assuming, "300 children died in terrorist attack, blame it all on terrorists".
Terrorism is one of threats which is not really best eliminated by shooting every noticed terrorist but by understanding terrorists, their motives and where they come from, how they gain followers, etc - and preventing the beasts from being born rather than shooting them when they're already ready to fight.
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Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's another Cesque post diving into the bottomless pit of monotony.
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Whatever. You western capitalist freaks are incapable of pure logical thinking.
Amen.
Razz
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Four legs good, two legs bad.
Amen.
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Animal farm...right?
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Right. Splendidio.
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I've watched both movie versions of the book...one was the (Editor: Censored) animated one.
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Oh well. Unlike you, I actually try to learn something about the case rather than assuming, "300 children died in terrorist attack, blame it all on terrorists".
1.Terrorists hold children hostage in a school for three days, during which they kill multiple children and adults.
2.On the third day a bomb(s) go off, destroying the roof of the gymnasium, killing hundred inside.
3.When the children try to run, the terrorists start shooting them.
Tell me, how is this the fault of the Russian military again?
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Russian mility does not care about hostage life. Their primary target is elimination of terrorists - not safety of children.
The huge number of dead children wasn't actually result of pure terroristic action, but not-well-performed anti-terroristic action. The number could be pretty much minimalised.
From other point of view, AT forces achieved what they wanted to do - fast action of eliminating terrorist threat.
I've watched both movie versions of the book...one was the (Editor: Censored) animated one.
In the latest film one, they changed the ending to a happy one, which totally ruined the movie.
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I never watched either movies, movies for those kind of things are usually lame... they changed it to a happy ending, that sucks, friggin censorship, I swear, it's like Disney.
And I'm not totally against what you're saying this time Cesque, *shocks* although I still don't want to undermine what happened though. Those terrorists should not have done what they did, I wouldn't even care as much if it weren't for the fact that they targetted children this time. I'd rather have tons of old guys or something get blown to bits, but when it's little ones who don't even have the chance to live their full lives.
Then again I wonder how much they were looking forward to anyway in the next few years, perhaps it saved them the trouble from the ultimate misery the whole world will probably suffer once things start going real bad. Especially if Bush is re-elected...
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Little ones, chance to live lives? Oh well, 1/5 10 year olds in Poland is already involved in smoking cigarretes and stealing stuff, and Russia is pretty much worse country than Poland when it comes to bandicy level. But there is the rest of 4/5 children which obviously done nothing bad. And for the sake of this...
Children do not derserve to die in terroristic attacks - and terrorist knew that they will grab attention by choosing children.
But, AT forces should also care a bit about these children. It is obvious when they storm the room shooting like blind on enterance, more children will die - killed either accidently in AT forces shootings or by terrorists (as hostages).
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Russian mility does not care about hostage life. Their primary target is elimination of terrorists - not safety of children.
The huge number of dead children wasn't actually result of pure terroristic action, but not-well-performed anti-terroristic action. The number could be pretty much minimalised.
From other point of view, AT forces achieved what they wanted to do - fast action of eliminating terrorist threat.
Not one of those sentances answered my question in the slightest...
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Err, whatever. What else can answer question why it's fault or russian military other than methods russian military uses during it's actions?
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This is why I'm glad that we have security officers in our school buildings...
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Err, whatever. What else can answer question why it's fault or russian military other than methods russian military uses during it's actions?
Because I doubt any of the civilian casualties were caused by the Russian military. The terrorists shot people and blew up bombs before the military went into the school.
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While I belive the Russian Military HAD to have caused some of them, The Chechinian Terrorists are to blame, Because the point is, If they hadnt gone in the school anyway, There would have been No Millitary there in the first place and There would have been no Bloodshed, So even if the Russin military did cause some casualties, It would still be the fault of the terrorists cause theyre the (Editor: Censored)in' morons that caused the whole damn thing.......
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Because I doubt any of the civilian casualties were caused by the Russian military. The terrorists shot people and blew up bombs before the military went into the school.
You put too much trust in russian military. Their action this time wasn't much better than the one in Dubrovka theatre, I guess, where they used gas and murdered 4 times more hostages than terrorists. Actions with hostages should be more precisely planned and subtle, rather than storming the school shooting whoever is moving.
While I belive the Russian Military HAD to have caused some of them, The Chechinian Terrorists are to blame, Because the point is, If they hadnt gone in the school anyway, There would have been No Millitary there in the first place and There would have been no Bloodshed, So even if the Russin military did cause some casualties, It would still be the fault of the terrorists cause theyre the (Editor: Censored)in' morons that caused the whole damn thing.......
This way, you can say it's Russia's fault because they treat Chechenia like French treated Algeria before.
But I'm not in mood to waste time explaining all situation to you. It's far easier to think "terrorists are evil so let's kill them all" way.
<a href='http://www.turkiye.net/sota/chechen.html' target='_blank'>http://www.turkiye.net/sota/chechen.html</a>
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No, Killing anyone is never the way to go, Im just sayin, If the dumbasses would'nt have been there, It wouldnt have happened, Im sure they could come up with some kind ov verbal agreement, But killing people is NEVER the answer(this goes for russia too)...
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I guess you do not understand matters of Russia.
Verbal? In Chechenia, Russia controls everything. Chechenians can't say a word, their press is controlled, political parties controlled, the only way of protesting against russian politics is to make an offense. A desperate, bloody offense.
I don't think attacking schools or theatres will make them any good, though. Attacking military bases or government buildings is far better idea. As I said, the school attack was propably planned as a part of offensive action on Kremlin, but it was stopped by rapid action of AT forces.
You can call it terrorism, but it's about the same thing we had in Poland during german occupation. Partisan war.
To say more on the topic, I could bring up some good polish articles on Chechenia or Chechenian war, but I'll have to translate 'em first, I guess. About situation in Chechenia, russian military actions there, censorship and anti-independent-media actions in regions of "terrorism".
If you want, use some auto-translators... Here are some good polish articles to take a look at.
<a href='http://www.basajew.blog.pl' target='_blank'>http://www.basajew.blog.pl</a>
- Good analyzis of anti-terroristic action
<a href='http://kiosk.onet.pl/art.html?DB=162&ITEM=1188806&KAT=237' target='_blank'>http://kiosk.onet.pl/art.html?DB=162&ITEM=1188806&KAT=237</a>
- Russian anti-civilian actions in Chechenia
<a href='http://kiosk.onet.pl/art.html?DB=162&ITEM=1188658&KAT=237' target='_blank'>http://kiosk.onet.pl/art.html?DB=162&ITEM=1188658&KAT=237</a>
- Sudden death of opposition reportress who investigated case in Osetia...
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Auto Translators really aren't a good idea,Since sentence structure itself is different from lnguage to language, But I would like to read if you could find or get it translated somehow.....
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I'll waste my time and translate some parts of first site for you, then... Razz Sorry for all mistakes and possible construction errors, I usually translated this word after word, so some sentences might look funny-constructed.
Why this storm failed - analyzis
In Bieslana, for each 1 killed or captured terrorist almost 10 hostages died - such proportion signs absolutele catastrophe.
Why comandoo attacked?
We don't know. It's very unlike, that the attack was preppared storm to free the hostages. No professional antiterrorist wouldn't attack school in Bieslana during day, because it would end with death of lots of hostages. The storm was most likely planned, but during the night.
Propably then, antiterrorists were provoked to attack by terrorists. If to (some crisis-case institution) came the information, that terrorists kill the hostages, attack must have been instant, without thinking. But antiterrorists around the world have 2 storm plans - one preppared for ideal day and time, and second for such a suprising situation. The method of performing action in Bieslana proves, that Russians didn't have second plan, and terrorists suprised them.
If it would be proven that - as one of version says - the beginning of the storm was provoken by blowing a piece of wall by terrorists, it would mean they made an unbelievable mistake.
Could this attack be performed better?
Surely, it would be possible to preppare for it better. Russians had more than 2 day/night cycles to gather in place proper forces and equipment. As unproved information claim, special forces were used during attack, but they weren't soldiers trained in saving hostages, but unit preppared for military action. They're trained different way, during action more important is to immobile enemy rather than save hoistages.
Is there any other evidence that the attack was a total failure?
Yes. A total failure was trail of surrounding the school with safety cordon. No terrorist should have escaped the school - and escaped almost several. Police and military didn't remove civilians from the surroundings of school, there were too many people arround, usually armed. This disabled coordination between various units, and even despite that in Russia it almost doesn't exist (the coordination). 2 years ago, head russian newspaper "Military thought" warned, that "antiterroristic actions are made harder by the lack of coordination between police, military and local rule."
West, places to hold hostages are strictly isolated. In near surroundings only negotiators or comandoo may be. No one can provoke terrorists - visibility of weapons, nervous police behavior or existence of civilian spectators. If in Bieslana someone made terrorists think that the storm begins, it was error of people on which the whole action depended.
After the attack we saw great chaos - unorderly running sanitarians, no ambulances, crowds of armed soldiers mixed with civilians. Such situation doesn't only make storm harder to perform, but primarily makes escape more possible for terrorists and decreases chances of survival or the most wounded.
The fight in the building lasted too long. Most likely, antiterrorists didn't know how many people occupy the building and where they are located. From history of antiterroristic actions we know, that each next second of operation multiplies risk of hostage death. Most spectacular antiterroristic actions were performed within 30 to 90 seconds.
Has Russia, for years devoured by terroristic attacks, a professional antiterroristic unit?
No. In USSR few special units were creates, like famous Alfa, also Wypieł, Dolphin and few other groups with colorful names. All are comandoo units, who existed to, in case of WWIII, attack western targets. They were trained to kill, not to save.
Antiterroristic groups have, in Russia, police forces of different republics and areas, also FSB. But they lack professional training and modern equipment.
Cremlin since today didn't make his own procedure of acting in AT actions - about who negotiates, how informations are gathered, which units attacks, not procedures or situations decide, but local rulers' and generals' influence. As russian observers claim, in Bieslana Specnaz attacked - unit preppared for militaryattacks after front line, not for saving civilians. In the world commandoos are highly specialised - experts of chasing Osama ben Laden won't be able to siege school captured by terrorists and vice versa.
Russian experts often write about power of their AT forces. Despite the fact that all russian AT actions after fall of USSR ended with massacres.
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Ahh, Thanks For that, Although you coulkd have changed some words to your liking Razz Razz
Well, It would seem That they ARE unorganized adn Don't Really give a flyin' (Editor: Censored), But its still not entirely their falut, Kids were killed By teh Chechinian terrorsits BEFORE They Started shooting, So, While The Russian Military seem to be dumbasses and Can be pu to some fault, Its not entirely there, Although, If this is Reliable, I can see where your coming from....
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Ahh, Thanks For that, Although you coulkd have changed some words to your liking Razz Razz
Don't you suspect me for that. I changed nothing, sometimes only sentence structure a bit.
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I wasn't being serious Razz