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Cesque

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« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2004, 07:45:54 AM »
Little ones, chance to live lives? Oh well, 1/5 10 year olds in Poland is already involved in smoking cigarretes and stealing stuff, and Russia is pretty much worse country than Poland when it comes to bandicy level. But there is the rest of 4/5 children which obviously done nothing bad. And for the sake of this...

Children do not derserve to die in terroristic attacks - and terrorist knew that they will grab attention by choosing children.

But, AT forces should also care a bit about these children. It is obvious when they storm the room shooting like blind on enterance, more children will die - killed either accidently in AT forces shootings or by terrorists (as hostages).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Cesque »
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Spyder

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« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2004, 10:33:17 AM »
Quote from: "Cesque"
Russian mility does not care about hostage life. Their primary target is elimination of terrorists - not safety of children.

The huge number of dead children wasn't actually result of pure terroristic action, but not-well-performed anti-terroristic action. The number could be pretty much minimalised.

From other point of view, AT forces achieved what they wanted to do - fast action of eliminating terrorist threat.
Not one of those sentances answered my question in the slightest...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Spyder »

Cesque

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« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2004, 11:20:20 AM »
Err, whatever. What else can answer question why it's fault or russian military other than methods russian military uses during it's actions?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Cesque »
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Mark of the Dragon

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« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2004, 05:09:11 PM »
This is why I'm glad that we have security officers in our school buildings...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Mark of the Dragon »
<center>
Roy Mustang



Yeah...that sounds like me <_<

<center>
You were born in the land of Warrior Pride. You live to fight, you have a strong spirit, courage and bravery. Strong lord! Unsheath thy sword, rush into war and strip the enemy of his flesh down to the core.


Umm...yeah

Spyder

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« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2004, 09:10:12 PM »
Quote from: "Cesque"
Err, whatever. What else can answer question why it's fault or russian military other than methods russian military uses during it's actions?
Because I doubt any of the civilian casualties were caused by the Russian military. The terrorists shot people and blew up bombs before the military went into the school.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Spyder »

deathsquad

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« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2004, 05:07:22 AM »
While I belive the Russian Military HAD to have caused some of them, The Chechinian Terrorists are to blame, Because the point is, If they hadnt gone in the school anyway, There would have been No Millitary there in the first place and There would have been no Bloodshed, So even if the Russin military did cause some casualties, It would still be the fault of the terrorists cause theyre the (Editor: Censored)in' morons that caused the whole damn thing.......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by deathsquad »

Cesque

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« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2004, 05:14:15 AM »
Quote
Because I doubt any of the civilian casualties were caused by the Russian military. The terrorists shot people and blew up bombs before the military went into the school.


You put too much trust in russian military. Their action this time wasn't much better than the one in Dubrovka theatre, I guess, where they used gas and murdered 4 times more hostages than terrorists. Actions with hostages should be more precisely planned and subtle, rather than storming the school shooting whoever is moving.

Quote
While I belive the Russian Military HAD to have caused some of them, The Chechinian Terrorists are to blame, Because the point is, If they hadnt gone in the school anyway, There would have been No Millitary there in the first place and There would have been no Bloodshed, So even if the Russin military did cause some casualties, It would still be the fault of the terrorists cause theyre the (Editor: Censored)in' morons that caused the whole damn thing.......


This way, you can say it's Russia's fault because they treat Chechenia like French treated Algeria before.

But I'm not in mood to waste time explaining all situation to you. It's far easier to think "terrorists are evil so let's kill them all" way.

<a href='http://www.turkiye.net/sota/chechen.html' target='_blank'>http://www.turkiye.net/sota/chechen.html</a>
« Last Edit: September 16, 2004, 05:22:34 AM by Cesque »
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deathsquad

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« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2004, 05:17:52 AM »
No, Killing anyone is never the way to go, Im just sayin, If the dumbasses would'nt have been there, It wouldnt have happened, Im sure they could come up with some kind ov verbal agreement, But killing people is NEVER the answer(this goes for russia too)...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by deathsquad »

Cesque

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« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2004, 05:27:17 AM »
I guess you do not understand matters of Russia.

Verbal? In Chechenia, Russia controls everything. Chechenians can't say a word, their press is controlled, political parties controlled, the only way of protesting against russian politics is to make an offense. A desperate, bloody offense.

I don't think attacking schools or theatres will make them any good, though. Attacking military bases or government buildings is far better idea. As I said, the school attack was propably planned as a part of offensive action on Kremlin, but it was stopped by rapid action of AT forces.

You can call it terrorism, but it's about the same thing we had in Poland during german occupation. Partisan war.

To say more on the topic, I could bring up some good polish articles on Chechenia or Chechenian war, but I'll have to translate 'em first, I guess. About situation in Chechenia, russian military actions there, censorship and anti-independent-media actions in regions of "terrorism".

If you want, use some auto-translators... Here are some good polish articles to take a look at.
<a href='http://www.basajew.blog.pl' target='_blank'>http://www.basajew.blog.pl</a>
- Good analyzis of anti-terroristic action
<a href='http://kiosk.onet.pl/art.html?DB=162&ITEM=1188806&KAT=237' target='_blank'>http://kiosk.onet.pl/art.html?DB=162&ITEM=1188806&KAT=237</a>
- Russian anti-civilian actions in Chechenia
<a href='http://kiosk.onet.pl/art.html?DB=162&ITEM=1188658&KAT=237' target='_blank'>http://kiosk.onet.pl/art.html?DB=162&ITEM=1188658&KAT=237</a>
- Sudden death of opposition reportress who investigated case in Osetia...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2004, 05:37:20 AM by Cesque »
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deathsquad

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« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2004, 12:25:27 AM »
Auto Translators really aren't a good idea,Since sentence structure itself is different from lnguage to language, But I would like to read if you could find or get it translated somehow.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by deathsquad »

Cesque

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« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2004, 09:34:35 AM »
I'll waste my time and translate some parts of first site for you, then... Razz Sorry for all mistakes and possible construction errors, I usually translated this word after word, so some sentences might look funny-constructed.

Why this storm failed - analyzis

In Bieslana, for each 1 killed or captured terrorist almost 10 hostages died - such proportion signs absolutele catastrophe.

Why comandoo attacked?

We don't know. It's very unlike, that the attack was preppared storm to free the hostages. No professional antiterrorist wouldn't attack school in Bieslana during day, because it would end with death of lots of hostages. The storm was most likely planned, but during the night.

Propably then, antiterrorists were provoked to attack by terrorists. If to (some crisis-case institution) came the information, that terrorists kill the hostages, attack must have been instant, without thinking. But antiterrorists around the world have 2 storm plans - one preppared for ideal day and time, and second for such a suprising situation. The method of performing action in Bieslana proves, that Russians didn't have second plan, and terrorists suprised them.

If it would be proven that - as one of version says - the beginning of the storm was provoken by blowing a piece of wall by terrorists, it would mean they made an unbelievable mistake.

Could this attack be performed better?
 
Surely, it would be possible to preppare for it better. Russians had more than 2 day/night cycles to gather in place proper forces and equipment. As unproved information claim, special forces were used during attack, but they weren't soldiers trained in saving hostages, but unit preppared for military action. They're trained different way, during action more important is to immobile enemy rather than save hoistages.


Is there any other evidence that the attack was a total failure?

Yes. A total failure was trail of surrounding the school with safety cordon. No terrorist should have escaped the school - and escaped almost several. Police and military didn't remove civilians from the surroundings of school, there were too many people arround, usually armed. This disabled coordination between various units, and even despite that in Russia it almost doesn't exist (the coordination). 2 years ago, head russian newspaper "Military thought" warned, that "antiterroristic actions are made harder by the lack of coordination between police, military and local rule."

West, places to hold hostages are strictly isolated. In near surroundings only negotiators or comandoo may be. No one can provoke terrorists - visibility of weapons, nervous police behavior or existence of civilian spectators. If in Bieslana someone made terrorists think that the storm begins, it was error of people on which the whole action depended.

After the attack we saw great chaos - unorderly running sanitarians, no ambulances, crowds of armed soldiers mixed with civilians. Such situation doesn't only make storm harder to perform, but primarily makes escape more possible for terrorists and decreases chances of survival or the most wounded.

The fight in the building lasted too long. Most likely, antiterrorists didn't know how many people occupy the building and where they are located. From history of antiterroristic actions we know, that each next second of operation multiplies risk of hostage death. Most spectacular antiterroristic actions were performed within 30 to 90 seconds.

Has Russia, for years devoured by terroristic attacks, a professional antiterroristic unit?

No. In USSR few special units were creates, like famous Alfa, also Wypieł, Dolphin and few other groups with colorful names. All are comandoo units, who existed to, in case of WWIII, attack western targets. They were trained to kill, not to save.

Antiterroristic groups have, in Russia, police forces of different republics and areas, also FSB. But they lack professional training and modern equipment.

Cremlin since today didn't make his own procedure of acting in AT actions - about who negotiates, how informations are gathered, which units attacks, not procedures or situations decide, but local rulers' and generals' influence. As russian observers claim, in Bieslana Specnaz attacked - unit preppared for militaryattacks after front line, not for saving civilians. In the world commandoos are highly specialised - experts of chasing Osama ben Laden won't be able to siege school captured by terrorists and vice versa.

Russian experts often write about power of their AT forces. Despite the fact that all russian AT actions after fall of USSR ended with massacres.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 09:35:37 AM by Cesque »
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deathsquad

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« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2004, 12:55:44 AM »
Ahh, Thanks For that, Although you coulkd have changed some words to your liking Razz Razz

Well, It would seem That they ARE unorganized adn Don't Really give a flyin' (Editor: Censored), But its still not entirely their falut, Kids were killed By teh Chechinian terrorsits BEFORE They Started shooting, So, While The Russian Military seem to be dumbasses and Can be pu to some fault, Its not entirely there, Although, If this is Reliable, I can see where your coming from....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by deathsquad »

Cesque

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« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2004, 04:17:35 AM »
Quote
Ahh, Thanks For that, Although you coulkd have changed some words to your liking Razz Razz


Don't you suspect me for that. I changed nothing, sometimes only sentence structure a bit.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 07:37:44 AM by Cesque »
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deathsquad

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« Reply #88 on: September 20, 2004, 02:54:40 AM »
I wasn't being serious Razz
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by deathsquad »