(no subject)

[Cesque]

So you call Jesus a b***rd? Can't say I like or believe this concept.

Strange, but in Poland "virgin" is term used only for females... It sounds gayish to said that about a man, so don't use this term when you're in Poland and you're refering to yourself Very Happy It comes from the fact that you can tell if woman is a virgin or not by the physical body state (I won't go into details, hehe) and as for man you can't determine if he already had sex or not.

[Haraldur]

Good point.

If God does not exist (and I do not believe he does) then how else could Mary have become impregnated.

I cannot believe this, we are talking about a 2000 year old soap...

[Cesque]

Hmmm, I believe in God in my very own specific way...

I've read through several apocryphics some time ago... These are things which Church / Jews cut out from the Bible, or they were not included... Like the origin of demons and the nephilim...

There are also evangelies by Thomas or Nicodemus, showing the very anti-feministic aspects of Bible (read them yourself, it's easy to find these on the net)

Hmm, after reading some of them I began thinking the whole Satan was right, he wasn't that bad, he had his motivations to hate God and Mankind... I can't say he was right, but I understand the poor dude, same way I understand chechenian or afgan terrorists - they just do only thing they can, they fight, the only way they show, with fear, the only way the can manifest their power - by publical sowing of terror.

[Haraldur]

Good point, but I still do not believe in him.

[Cesque]

Hmmm, faith really helps - faith in anything. You have someone to blame for everything, that's the best argument I can find right now Smile

Also... I believe there is something more than the laws of physics that keeps the world the way it is.

A good example was the one in original Jurassic Park book, about life. It's something humanity would never reach. Let's say you have several objects interacting. Two planets, two cells. In space. It's easy to imagine, right? Now think of hundred such objects, working all at once, without disharmony. It's harder to think about.

Now think that your organism is consistent of thousands of thousands of thousands of cells. They are all grown out from 2 basic totipotential cells. With time, these cells specialise, some become nerves, other heart, they began moving blood and beating the heart, gathering all sources from outside factors - food, water, oxygen. They build themselves until an organism is grown into a thing which can think on it's own.

And it works PERFECTLY, flawlessly. (almost) It is a construction so perfect and containing so many parts, one may think changing the order would snuff out the candle. But no, you can take wounds and survive. You have freedom of what you eat, your organism would generally keep you alive anyway (if you'll eat something, that is). It is a machine, which learns on it's own mistakes, becomes stronger with failures and adopts to the environment, which's past is blessed with millenias of evolution and future with will of survival...

Now I can't believe it only takes chemical reaction of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen & nitrogen to produce this all...

[Haraldur]

I does in my opinion. Organisms which cannot survive injury do not survive to brees, so only organisms which do survive breed, and they produce organisms which are like them.

[Cesque]

Okay... Just letting you know I doubt humanity will ever create a machine which will repair itself and upgrade with parts it'll find, searching for it's own fuel to run. And it sounds plain simple compared to what living beings are.

Like them? Okay, the thing which Church ever fought most and the thing which I treat as most divine at all is evolution. There is absolutely no known explanation why it happens. Perdiocial mutations are not the case, it's a highly organised force. Evolution does not happen instantly, which would be easier to understand, so just because you'll begin eating concrete instead of fruits won't make your children be able to eat concrete.

It is force no one can steer - it is not ruled by will, yet knows what the speciment wants, for example, the Darvin's birds (forgot the english name for this specie of bird) which had assimilated to different types of food, depending on island they lived in. You can't say they prayed for being able to feed on fruits, and the others to feed on insects. They have assimilated themselves. God knows how. God knows who gave them longer beaks when they hunted for insects and harder ones if they cracked open the nuts.

Another thing which can't be explained by physics or chemistry are the emotions. When you see a cute girl or enemy you hate, your body reacts differently. What causes that? The optical mosaic which is memored by the brain, and if it sees it, it produces proper hormons? It's hard to believe, really.

Also... what determines if you can tell something is beautiful (be it girl, painting or the stars) and something is not? What makes people fear when they see the blood?

You see, propably there IS an explanation. But propably humanity won't find it. Because humanity can't do everything. Whatever methods you will try, you cannot see the atom as you can't make a spying class which will show it. You can't determine what happens inside black holes as nothing would survive that, be it man or observer shuttle send there with camera. There are borders, and blessed should be the people who try to cross them other way... For example, you can't tell what is substance built from by magnifying your view into atoms, but you can use spectroscopy, as every atom acts differently when light ray passes through it.

I hope this is all I wanted to say Smile

[Haraldur]

I am not going to say any more, I know you will not change what you believe just by talking to me. If you want to know more then read books about it, they would explain things better that me.

[Cesque]

Yeah, I won't, as a fanatical pantheist! But the discussions are fun, can't you say?  Wink

[Haraldur]

I like discussions and debate.

[DarkElite]

how can you say that? if youve read the bible (as im sure cesque has) it can make sence, but those whom are athiast dont uderstand it as it truely it. Remember, you only have one chance, make sure you make the right choice

[Haraldur]

I have read the whole bible through, about 5 years ago I was forced to go to a sunday school, but I did not believe a word of it so I was allowed to quit, and I read the whole bible.

[DarkElite]

oh, heh  Very Happy , but still...how can you find it mere coincidence?

[Haraldur]

It is not pure coincidence, it is logical. For instance, on the Galapogos islands there are several species of finches. Lets say that on one island there are a lot of nuts that can onlt be opened with big beaks, and this is the main food. The finches which are there will get larger beaks because, there will be some in the population with larger beaks than average. These are more likely to survive and breed. Their children have larger beaks and do even better. The animals and plants adapt to their surroundings. Only the finches with big beaks survive, and the others starve, leaving only the big beaked ones to breed.

[DarkElite]

how does that relate to subject? that just saying that life exists because of adeptation, which is true, but how can life itself be mere coincedence? if the sun were any further away, we'd freze, any closer and we would burn. how do you this life as just a one chance opertunity to just die at age 83? life is no game, nor is it something that will end.
     even for those who r athiast, their life will not end at death, if they do not become those whom are born again, they will spend eternity without the Word. this, i most certainly fear.